Cyrene's Evolution : Balancing Hit Points to Damage and Armor Decay.

Greetings Cyreneans.

This thread is probably going to be the most controversial and on the other hand the most important thread since Cyrene began in May 2012. So I am going to make sure this thread is as constructive and informative and does not go off the way Mindark Balances there HP and Damage of creatures/humanoids/robots.

Special Events (ie. Migrations) may happen that go against what i am saying so this applies to only the permenant spawns of creatures/humanoids/robots of Cyrene.

Sometime last year Mindark rebalanced the whole of the Entropia Universe Mobs and on the other hand made some mobs extremely diffucult to hunt because of there HP level. When Arkadia was released in 2011 it started with the most unbalanced HP to Damage mobs since the Levi was released along with the proteron (So easy to kill with high Hit Points). On calypso , there are many mobs remain unbalanced hp to damage wise and have never been fixed, (eg. the Falx, Formidon, Itumatrox etc..).

And then there are the impossible mobs to hunt now as before on Rocktropia (eg. Street King and friends, Crunk Shark) this made land owner of Camp Crunk very upset. Other changes happened after the rebalance across the Entropia Universe (Vulcan Drake lost its hp mojo along with Island Shark, The Pirate Quartermaster lost 2/3rds of its original hp of 26000, Levi got a balanced damage tree - Completely back in balance however, some mobs unhuntable). The result many mobs that used to be popular are much less hunted after the rebalance.

In regards to Cyrene Mobs it is completely reversed, making the mob damage high , armor decay costs high, however HP is low. Some fixes have been made to rebalance a very small amount of Mobs on Cyrene. And make hunting mobs and getting armor decay bills balanced with the costs damage wise by fixing the hit points on many many mobs.

I did a creature damage/decay test on almost each mob and noticed that a Solution must be released in the very near future if Cyrene is to have better efficiency in the Hunting Profession on alot of creatures, at this time many hunters from other worlds discourage hunting on cyrene cause the armor decay costs do not justify the loot return (ofc Mindark control the loot) however if we work with Mindarks Fomula on Damage to Hit Points we can find a Solution , and this is what this thread will be detailed as "The Solution"

(to be continued)

 

The Solution
--------------

There are a few points the developers must consider in the next step to rebalancing the mob hit points to the damage and armor decay is delt.

* Must keep the mob economically viable and not damage its "loot flow", this cannot be achieved by reducing either damage therefore effecting Armor costs (under RCE Balancing Rules, Armor decay costs cannot get cheaper..sorry folks), Reduction in HP will damage its "Loot Cycle" therefore creating a brand new cycle and all the players who have hunted this mob in the past will have hunted the mob for nothing (in theory through my studies of what happened on Next Island after the rebalance).

* The Hit Points of the mob must be increased to correlate in the cost of hunting that mob (armor decay and weapon and ammo decay costs (ie. Damage Inflicted).

* Once a mob has been commissioned by Mindark it can only evolve in stats and decay and not recommended it be de-evolved (again RCE Balancing Regulations), unfortunately some mobs have de-evolved on cyrene therefore effects its overall "loot flow" however the decay to the armor of the mob is still the same before the "de-evolved". Only Solution to this issue is the hit points to be increased to balance with the Level of the mob. (estimated formula for level to HP will be explained in the next post)

The idea of this thread is to issue the costs of the armor decay as well as Damage Inflicted points (to correlate to predicted average loot return on a selected mob). At this stage many mobs on Cyrene have extremely low average loot and must increase efficiency making hunting all mobs on Cyrene balanced and worthwhile.

(start your own opinions, observations/judgements, the more the better, cant get everything right but can work with what statistics i have uncovered throughout Cyrene over this past year)

** continued in Part 3 of Analysis of The Solution **

Cheers

Agis

 

well agis, i dont agree with u with all but one thing: returns are too low now. but returns are not a plain tt value. loot in terms of tt is related to hp of the mob and costs u have on it, but adding more hp will make things worse only.
im sure devs work hard about fixing loot-craft chains, so after that we will get more MU in loot. also "better" items, like some unls or good L things can save the few days or even weeks of hunting.
I say that even losing badly since minipatch, about 15k. I just didnt get lucky with MU items as some recently were.

anyway, why i dont agree about dmg/hp level changes? if u want to lower the decay, kill the mob faster - its simple as that. if u cant do it alone quick, get a team.
why is it better like this? more dmg, gives higher level of the mob, higer lev gives higher tier items. if u add some hp to mobs with high dmg, u will get even more decay, cuz u will be killint them longer. its all about cooperation when ur dps is lacking. if u lower the dmg and keep the hp, u will make mob level lower.

look at those mobs like challenges. wanna make all mobs borring? hell no! i dont want another caly like tt gambling planet!

 

Look i dont want that either' and i said this thread will be contreversial , when i do the Analysis of the Solution i think you might understand things better im not pointing out every mob, but in the analysis the examples i provide later will show that correct hp and damage balancing is a must needed change.

 

Hi, I'm looking forward to part 3. I may have missed it above, but I don't see regen mentioned.
I have been assuming that the tt of loot is primarily based on the full hp value of the mob, so quick regen and high damage mean higher general costs per kill, with a compensation maybe in the mu of the loot in the mob loot tables.

Thus, regen could possibly be lowered without everything resetting and maybe achieve more balance that way (or be part of a solution). Yes?

 

i guess its the first time i agree with jetsina lol
lowering regen but keeping the dmg/hp rations for some mobs could slove ur problem agis. anyway i still think that this setup forces ppl to gather in teams, is it bad?

 

My first advice is don't fix something that isn't broken.

 

Balance is good. But a bit of imbalance is also something that makes this game interesting in my opinion.

And this "entropy gap" will remain as long as the universe expands.

 

I'm afraid i see things quite differently, but maybe i just don't get the problem?
I don't see a huge difference with other planets?

 

lots of research from players point to loot based on damage done within borders.

Regen is not important for loot return.

 

If I agree with that but say it has quite an effect on the cost of a kill.......where does that leave us ?

The only effect I have personally looked at is the overkill shot, where quite a lot of the overkill cost is returned on average (but not 90%). I do not recall higher loots or globals being achieved as a system function by letting mobs regen and then knocking them down again, either once or more times...
[edit: I just checked overkill on a nearby planet and got no sign of any overkill repayment at all in the loot! No idea if this is now generally so...... ]

If most of the regen were to be paid back within some range then we would also see the loot bands blur (the 1x, 3.5x multipliers etc) on higher regen mobs, depending on the dps of the kill, but I'm unaware of such a spreading.
Even so, if the return off this area is less than the famous 90%, then lowering regen rate would be part of possible rebalancing measures for mobs that are 'costing too much' in relation to loot.

(and hi Thanatos - are you still 'with me' here, or have we gone different ways again now? )

 

Analysis of The Solution

Its good to see alot of feedback negative and positive, some insights shared between the community will be covered as we analyse "The Solution".

First things first we must analyse the player base.

* Casual , New Players, Players playing just to pass the time and have fun

* Unskilled, Players intrested in skilling their avatar and hoping to maybe get lucky

* Farmers, Players only interested in Mark Up Loots only for Reselling, Trading

* Skilled, Players who have sufficient skill and hunt eco to save PED, sell there MU loots to keep hunting for another day.

* Veteran, Players who have invested many years into their avatar building, hunt with UL weapons and armor, have a broad knowledge of hunting efficiently - this could mean the veteran is an eco hunter with slow skill progression and cost effective or an efficient hunter that uses all damage enhancers, high decay weapons and armor for maximum skill progression.

* Uber, Players who use the best toys ingame, high hit points and high evade/dodge skills, the people that want to grind , day in and day out.

In looking at the player base we will now analyse what level of mob these people hunt and which mobs at this time are popular amongst these groups as well as sorting potential grind mobs for specified skill groups to enahance the players mob coverage.

Note : Level of the mobs (after the rebalance) goes based on the defensive skills and level of your avatar rather than your offensive skills in hunting.

Casual - Level 1-15 (Crystal Pede, Bile & Mutant Jellyworm, Mature Dire Weed, Young Tide Claw, Scout Bots, Young & Mature Panleon, Merefolken, Noob Challenge Mobs, Drill Bots)

Unskilled - Level 15-28 (Mature & Young Mang Chang, Young Empis Wasp, Imperium Pilots, Stalker Bots, Zyn'Dos Scouts and Foragers, Old Alpha Panleon, Zeladoth Alpha & Beta, Duster Workers and Hunters)

Farmers - Any Level that gives MU loots

Skilled Players - Level 28-40 (Mature & Young Mang Chang, Old Empis Wasp, Skyshatter Robots, Zyn Dos Scouts and Hoarders, Old Tide Claws, Strong Living Vortex, Duster Scouts, Stalker Bots, Hunter Sea Wraith, Zeladoth Gamma, Zeta and Theta, Old Alpha Panleon, Young Rhino Beetle, Imperium Grunt & Vet, Horned Whisker Fish, Merefolken Gladiators)

Veteran Players - Level 40-54 (Young Rhino Beetle, Fenris Elite Guard, Skreel, Muck Jaw Alpha, Old Mang Chang, Advanced Skyshatters, Provider & Guardian Tide Claw, Duster Looters, Ravaging Living Vortex, Provider Empis Wasp, Zeladoth Lambda & Kappa and Mu, Majestic & Chaser Sea Wraiths, Dominant Sky Wraiths, Duster Looter and Clan Leader)

Uber Players - Level 55+ (Zeladoth Nu & Xi, Zeladoth Omicron & Rho, Wiles, Ryancho Bird, Dominant, Alpha & Prowler Tide Claw, Destructive and Living Storm Vortex, Guardian Mang Chang, Red Skreel, Dock Guardian, Prowler, Stalker, Old Stalker and Old Prowler Panleon, Old Flesh Rippers, Old Jack, Red Molten Golem and Infused Lava Golem, Mature and Ancient Rhino Beetle, Ancient Sky & Sea Wraith)

that is my skill tree in which we will work our analysis of how to balance to these skill trees, and also possible new maturities to fill the gaps (similar to weapon skill trees)

(to be continued)

 

Adapting The Solution

After analysing what level players hunt and taking into consideration some of the feedback I have been recieving, I am creating a hunting system with a tree of 5 Tiers

Tier 1 : Casual , Tier 2 : Unskilled, Tier 3 : Skilled, Tier 4 : Veteran, Tier 5 : Uber

Now we look at the missions at hand (old grinding missions, and not daily skill ones), and provide a balanced hunting experience for all levels.

ARC Challenges - Panleon, Crystal Pede, Swamplurker, Tide Claw, Dire Weed

Ranked Challenges - Empi, Merefolken, Sea Wraith, Jellyworm, Scout Bot

Attribute Challenges - Empis Wasp (Agility), Rhino (Agility), Mang Chang (Stamina), Drill Bots (Psyche), Imperium (Strength), Imperium Pilots (Intelligence)

Crystal Pede - Merefoken and Empi should remain exclusive to Tier 1

Swamplurker has bug problems at this stage so recommended to hold off on this one

Tide Claw already has a level tree Tiers 1-5 - No Change Needed
(this model can also be used as a template for future mobs and maturity unlocks)

Panleon should have mission adjusted to include Stalker, Old Stalker, Old Prowler, Prowler
(unfortunately because of the reward mechanics Old Alpha must remain the minimum)
Panleon to cater for Tiers 2-5

Old Stalker , Stalker , Prowler, Old Prowler (recommeded to be refined to 2 maturities only) and Increase the Hit Points (to Level 60-70 standard) and Reduce Regeneration.
How bout an Ancient Panleon Boss single spawn

Drill Bots - Devs have something special planned in the future

Dire Weed - Unlock full 5 Tier Maturity, recommended.

Tier 1 - Mature Dire Weed (remain as is) HP400
Tier 2 - Change Guardian Dire Plant to Guardian Dire Weed
Increase to Approx Level 18 - Hit Points Doubled to Mature Dire Weed ~800HP
Tier 3 - Change Mutated Dire Plant to Mutated Dire Weed
This one maybe a dilemma with the Zyn Token Mission with Mutated Dire Plant, if the mission parameters can be changed then good or decide to create exclusive Tier 3 maturity - feedback needed on this one.
Increase to approx Level 32 - Hit Points Doubled to Guardian Dire Weed ~1500HP
Tier 4 - Purslane Dire Weed same boss to the Tier 3 Mutated Dire Weed (or other maturity tba)
Increase to approx Level 44 - Hit Points Doubled to Mutated (or other maturity tba) Dire Weed ~3000HP
Tier 5 - New Maturity - Deadly Dire Weed - Approx Level 69 ~5000HP

Scout Bot - Unlock full 5 Tier Maturity, recommended

Tier 1 - Scout Bot 100 Increase to 100HP (to come into line with the Ultimate Noob Mobs)
Tier 2 - Scout Bot 200 (increase to Scout Bot 779 Level with HP Halved) Approx Level 16 ~500HP
Tier 3 - Scout Bot 779 (Increase to Approx Level 28 HP tba)
Tier 4 - Maturity Unlock (devs descretion)
Tier 5 - Suggested Maturity Unlock - Evil Scout Bot 666 (black shiny plating with red strips) HP Level and Damage leave that to the devs.

Jellyworm - Unlock full 5 Tier Maturity, recommended
We will leave this one to the developers and the community for input on how to proceed on this one.

Sea Wraith - 5 Tier Maturity already unlocked.

Tier 1 : Ultimate Noob Challenge (Weak Watcher Soldier)
Tier 2 : Devestator Sea Wraith ~L24 (Reduce Regeneration , Increase HP to approx 1200)
Tier 3 : Hunter Sea Wraith , ~L29 (Reduce Regeneration , Increase HP to approx 1500)
Tier 4 : Chaser and Majestic Sea Wraith (Reduce Regeneration, Increase to over level 40 approx 2500-3000HP)
Tier 5 : Ancient Sea Wraith (remain single spawn boss, Increase HP significantly, Reduce Regeneration)

Mang Chang - 5 Tier Maturity recommeded

Tier 1 : Maturity Unlock - Recently Hatched Chang - Approx Level 12 ~600HP
Tier 2 : Young Mang Chang - HP Reduced to ~1200HP (if mechanics allow)
Tier 3 : Mature Mang Chang - Remain as is
Tier 4 : Old Mang Chang - Reduce Regeneration Increase to ~3000HP
Tier 5 : Guardian Mang Chang - Increase HP to ~4000 (Keep Regen as is)
How bout an Ancient Chang Boss single spawn

(next post we will discuss adaptations for other spawns)

time for more feedback before we resume the next part - until then cheers

 

Couple things Agis;

wouldn't Sprouted Dire weeds be considered tier 1 for dire? and the xt bot be tier 1 for scoutbots? also recommend decreasing damage done by the scout bots, decreasing argo those little buggers hit way to hard for their level. Not only that but every single creature on cyrene does double attacks per minute compared to other mobs around the universe.

 

Sprouted Dire Weeds cannot be included in the ARC Challenge because of the mission reward mechanics.

Scout Bot Collector XT is the same as Sprouted Dire Weed, I did consider these 2 mobs before but because of the balance of the reward for the challenges , balancing mechanics wont allow it. Thats also the reason why I didnt mention Tier 1 - Panleon , because the challenge mechanics go based on the old mature panleon , now Old Alpha Panleon. Junk Bot is the same.

Yes i do support reduced agro on the scout bots when expanding to a 5 level tier system, the attacks is probably MA controlled and out of the developers hands, however reduced agro range can be changed.

 

Creatures on Cyrene indeed attack a lot but on the other hand they do a lot less damage than similar level creatures on other planets. For example, Daikiba or Shinkiba Young on Calypso is also 30HP (the same as Scout Bot XT), I think they even have the same level, but still Daikiba does less hits BUT a lot more damage, like 3x more. So the question is - in what kind of format do you want to receive damage.

 

i dont like ur suggestions at the missions area Agis.
one thing is that u go too far in terms of what should be discussed publicly or what shouldnt.
second thing is that making those mission/challage tiers, u close them for some players. Maybe some guys want to hunt same maturity cuz its within their skill/item level, or they just feel its better for them? if u want to have an advantage for more skilled players, solution is simple - count kill points related to maturity, not just kills.
cheers

 

You have to understand we are a community planet, Planet Cyrene is the players planet.. Of course the devs have a closed off agenda they have planned, but we are supplying information that could help the developers, it doesn't mean it will happen. I am providing information for a 5 Tier structure doesnt necessarily mean there cant be 2 maturities in each tier, its only providing a template, its up to the devs to do what they think is best.

Another thing you should realise, everything I said is within possibilities in MAs balancing structure, You cant change Kills to Kill Points now on these missions (maybe after the 9000 mob mission it could be done) however Cyrene wants to work not on long grinding sessions (thats what the epic quests are for) and are focusing more on daily challenges/missions. The balancing mechanics just wouldnt allow for this change unless its a New Mission, if it can be done, good im all for it, but I think its far to complicated formula for the change to happen, I love Kill Points its great however have to look at the realistic picture on what can be changed and what can't - cheers.

 

if u offer someting for public judgemet, accept the outcome, the other look than u have, even if u dont like it.
i guess that u have to understand that i dont have to like or agree with ur ideas or attitude. thats it about the first paragraph.

once again, in my post above i said that:
- we shouldnt dig too deep in devs work, and say what "cyrene wants"
- shaping missions like u offer, u cut some lower level players form later stage of missions, so there is a need of old kill count system also.

about "realising" something, im glad that u have so much info about in game mechanics and about what
"cyrene wants", but i guess u dont u remember what happened 1-2 years ago? MA rebalanced all missions and their rewards... so it is possible, only got to have a sence to do it. also i dont say they got to do it.
i was talking about missions that will be added in future, higher kill stages, so why they cant use kill points?

anyway, ur idea can be merged with old system and my look easyly:
- leave all missions that we got here like they are, but making later stages after 9k, in killpoint system - doable
- for new mobs keep making missions this way, but also add new type of missions, where ur system of graduating maturity have sence.

cheers